PsychologistSay...
Everyday life can be tricky - impossible even, and talking about it can be even more challenging. Trust me; I get it - being human has its challenges. Hello, I’m Dr. Tami, a Licensed Clinical Psychologist. I create candid conversations about what Psychologists are Saying related to everyday situations. I combine Indigenous & Modern Day Psychology - helping us understand behaviors impacting ourselves and others.PS: Here's to Being Human.
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PsychologistSay...
Tackling Public Speaking Anxiety: Myths and Mechanisms
Can the fear of public speaking be more than just a nervous feeling? Discover how our brains can perceive an audience as a threat, leading to anxiety that can freeze even the most confident individuals. Join us on this episode of Psychologist Say with our special guest, Harold, as we unpack the psychological mechanisms behind public speaking anxiety. Learn about performance anxiety, social anxiety disorder, and the roles of the sympathetic and parasympathetic nervous systems in managing stress. Harold shares his journey of overcoming this common fear, offering hope and practical advice for anyone struggling to communicate effectively in front of an audience.
Ever thought extroverts naturally excel at public speaking? Think again. We challenge this common misconception by exploring how public speaking anxiety impacts both introverts and extroverts. From the fear of being judged to the dynamics of how different personality types find comfort in social settings, this conversation highlights the complexity of human behavior. Gain valuable insights into how understanding these traits can help manage social anxiety and improve interpersonal relationships. Whether you're an introvert or an extrovert, you'll find relatable experiences and expert advice that emphasize the importance of recognizing and addressing these fears.
Ready to tackle your public speaking anxiety head-on? We'll arm you with practical strategies and emphasize the importance of practice in overcoming this challenge. Harold and I discuss when it's crucial to seek mental health support, especially if anxiety significantly impairs your daily life. By recalling past successes and sharing personal stories, we aim to boost your confidence and motivate you to continue making progress. Download the episode and follow us on social media for more insightful content that encourages you to engage in meaningful conversations and conquer your fears one step at a time.
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The following is a series of candid conversations. The content is intended for informational purposes only and is not a substitute for seeking help from a mental health care professional. To learn more info regarding additional disclaimers, privacy policies and terms and conditions, please visit HelloDrTammycom.
Speaker 2:Bonjour, welcome to Psychologist Say, a podcast where I talk about the psychology of everyday living. I'm your host, dr Tammy. I'm joined today by returning guest Harold. How are you doing today, harold?
Speaker 1:I'm doing great.
Speaker 2:Great, I'm excited to have you here again today. So what would you like to talk about today? I'm letting you pick the topic.
Speaker 1:Public speaking would be, I think, a pretty interesting topic for me, and then hopefully you guys as well.
Speaker 2:Oh, definitely. This is public speaking. So is this something that I mean? You don't have to get personal with me if you don't want to. Everybody, I hope, understands the rules of psychologists, but is this something that you struggle with or you just want to talk about because you're interested in it?
Speaker 1:Oh, I've definitely struggled with it in my life. I mean, I've worked and worked to get better at it, but it's definitely something that I've struggled with for sure.
Speaker 2:Okay, yes, so you're definitely not alone in this struggle. This is the most common type of I don't know if it's a phobia or fear is public speaking, and so it's definitely something that I think our listeners will sit, take a moment and turn up the volume and really check in, because many individuals about 40% of our population in the US struggles from fear of public speaking.
Speaker 1:Right, I'm not alone.
Speaker 2:You're not even close to alone and it's considered it actually is considered in a class of. It falls under the umbrella of social anxiety disorder, and I did an episode on social anxiety in, I think, season one, and so those of you who want to get more information definitely go and revisit that episode. We won't go into so much detail about social anxiety here.
Speaker 2:Let's talk specifically about this here, about public speaking right and uh really, when somebody has a fear of this social or are doing something in public, it's more of a performance issue. So that feeling of performance anxiety.
Speaker 1:Right. So like when I'm, if I in a situation where I'm public speaking, speaking in public, oftentimes I'll just look out in the crowd and I see all of those eyes staring at me, waiting for me to say something, something intelligent, something interesting, you know, and that makes me freeze a little bit and it scares me, I guess, in a way well that, yes and uh, even the way that you're describing it does sound very fearful, right?
Speaker 2:oh yeah absolutely, and so part of that, uh freeze is the brain really starting to see that the audience, how you mentioned, has a threat?
Speaker 1:Oh, a threat.
Speaker 2:A threat. Like okay, and that's where the threat pairs with the word fear.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 2:And then so the brain will. It's kind of like your frontal lobe, many people say, like you, flip your lid. It's kind of like your frontal lobe, many people say, like you flip your lid, so that frontal part of your brain, when we're in a fear, extreme fear response, it will kind of go offline, kind of like a computer, and so it really shuts down our executive functioning, which is also a big word for problem solving being able to communicate effectively, sound, intelligent in the moment, because it takes higher order thinking and that's what this part of your brain does. It's that higher reaching brain that just kind of starts to malfunction under extreme stress.
Speaker 2:Because we think we're threatened, or we feel we're threatened, we've you're, or we feel we're threatened, but in your thoughts, your thoughts and your feelings are going to.
Speaker 1:I'm not safe here and it, and that's exactly right. I don't feel safe at all right sometimes. But, like I said, I've been working at it and I think I'm much better at it, but it takes a lot of effort to to work through that kind of problem At least it did for me.
Speaker 2:Yes, and what you're talking, you know, and if many people and if not you know, definitely look this up. But there's fight, flight and freeze. Does that sound familiar?
Speaker 1:Fight and flight are two things we've heard. I've heard quite a bit throughout my life, and freeze is a new one.
Speaker 2:I've been hearing that a little bit more in maybe the last couple years. Okay, so, uh, and, and people are adding uh, you know, with the social media and um, the internet, they're adding other things beyond fight and flight and freeze. Uh, there's fun, there's um, so they're they're adding more. But I, right now I stick to the fight, flight and freeze because that's my training and I'm very familiar with that. But the brain phrasing is part of our system that's being targeted and it's being activated. So our nervous system we have two parts the sympathetic and the parasympathetic. And so we are, we're are humans are supposed to live in parasympathetic, which is the rest and digest. It's, it's the calm state of being, it's when we're, when we're content, we're happy, we're safe, right.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:And then the uh, the uh. Sympathetic is when we're activated, we're stressed, we feel threatened and we need to respond. We need to either fight off what's threatening us right, if it was a, historically, it would be like an animal that we didn't have the means to protect ourselves with.
Speaker 2:This is really dating back to how we had to survive like hunter, gatherer, time frame stuff, like a lion walks into the, into our little village or something yeah, right, if we had a village then yeah, I mean, this is really um human nature and we are like animals, where we we have that same system of we need to survive. We are, we have built-in survival mechanisms that are triggering and being turned on when we feel threatened.
Speaker 2:Now remember that word survival yes so you're talking about public speaking and the same system is going off for you as if your audience was a room full of tigers that are ready to attack you.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so when we experience those moments when public speaking it's a core element of just being a human being, but it's triggering maybe a more traumatic I'm not sure if that's the right word.
Speaker 2:No, it doesn't even have to be a traumatic experience that triggers. It's the experience or the thought of fear that's paired with some emotion. So, uh, many people who are fearful of public speaking, it's into the deeper level of I'm fearful of that. I will be judged, that I will be humiliated, yeah, that I will say something that will just damage my reputation or that I will let people down. I won't be good enough. That's the. It's like a moral injury. It's something that they're thinking and feeling and the fear of that happening is just so intense, yeah. So some people who are fearful of public speaking may never, ever even do it. So they may just be so scared and in the the anticipation of something really horrific happening when they're doing this kind of performance so I guess, um, if someone has a fear of public speaking, what?
Speaker 1:what would you say to them to help work through that kind of problem?
Speaker 2:Part of it is the. It's looking at understanding that basic element of this is something I'm fearful of, and to examine what are my thoughts around public speaking that scare me Right. What is my biggest fear?
Speaker 2:So just kind of ask yourself those kinds of questions Right, and to also say, okay, I'm not alone in this, so this is something that I can work through. If it's something that you want to do. There are some people that are fearful of it and it doesn't distress them. They just don't. They're like no, I don't want to, it doesn't distress me, it's not a goal, so I don't, I don't want to work on it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so they might be in a career where they that's not necessary, but many people are in a career where you have to. You have to speak in front of people. There's really no option.
Speaker 2:Yes, and you know this brings up a good example for our kids in school. For many kids there is no option. This's not that they can't do the math, but having them go to the front of the class and race against another student.
Speaker 1:Or finish this math problem, walk up here, finish it. That can be very nerve wracking.
Speaker 2:Yes, yes. And for somebody who doesn't even have the fear of it but and their, their brain is freezing, it's not optimal, it's not competitive, it is frozen and then. So episodes like that in in childhood can then lead to maybe down the road. Well, I don't ever want to have to do anything in front, in front of a crowd again. So that's where it maybe it wasn't traumatic, but it was a uncomfortable memory of times when I felt like I failed, I felt like I wasn't, I didn't perform, I lost, I didn't do anything, I was, you know.
Speaker 2:So that can start that internal monologue with themselves on I'm, I'm really not good enough or I can't function like that. I'm not, I'm not, my brain isn't working under those circumstances. So those are some of the things where that fear may then be traced back to something that, oh yeah, I could see, where maybe as an adult, I wouldn't want to put myself out there for that kind of judgment, or just I don't want to feel that again so if someone does have this fear, does it, does it always stem from something else, like maybe early in childhood, uh, an environmental situation, or or is it?
Speaker 2:you know, sometimes it's just naturally occurring within a certain individual, both okay, I think some people you just have a higher like fear threshold or personality um of for certain things, and so I think that, uh, it's, I think it. Maybe it's even something that's very common for most people, until they start doing it more and more and then so, um, that's where, I said, personality comes into play too, where, um, some people are very outgoing, it may come they, they thrive on a bit of adrenaline and pressure yeah and so this is where some people may have been born with a different temperament.
Speaker 2:they may not feel as comfortable and confident, and so under those circumstances, they're just naturally getting more stressed out and they're malfunctioning a little bit more. Another thing is white knuckling it. We say that when you're really uncomfortable, so when you think about doing something and you're really clenching your fists or chins, and so they're getting through things in life, but they're really uncomfortable.
Speaker 2:it's like a kind of a painful experience yeah because, um, physiologically, their body is reacting with a lot more stress than maybe the people around them right their body's literally fighting it's somehow fighting instead of helping them get through this.
Speaker 2:so I think it's very natural for kids and adults to start to compare themselves to individuals who are geez, you know, boy, that student is just awesome. Maybe these would be your popular. You know, sometimes they call them the popular kids, or some kids who are just well spoken, the leaders. Maybe they're able to get out there and really compete. You know, they win the math competitions, the spelling bees, and so sometimes it just becomes to where we start to compare, yeah, and we start to limit ourselves in terms of certain things that we believe we can do and maybe that we shouldn't do, because we're not. We're not good enough or we're not good at it yeah, um, so I got another question.
Speaker 2:So with if we have, if we believe we have, uh, you know, the fear of public speaking or that kind of anxiety you mentioned, like that could be associated with, uh, social anxiety or social, uh, you know so let's say, uh, let's say when I, if somebody were to come in and work with me, I don't think I ever had a person come in and say I'm fearful of public speaking, Can you help me, can you help me with this? Uh, so usually it comes down to, uh, there's, I've been missing a lot of work, I'm, um, thinking about changing my job, I'm having a lot of anxiety and stress, uh, and then I'm having a lot of anxiety and stress, and then I'm avoiding gatherings at work, I'm calling in sick, I'm, you know, just kind of a lot of behaviors that are showing avoidance, and sometimes then it starts to get. Well, how do you do with you know? Do you have any fear about when? Are days when you're calling in sick, oh, and I have to get up and do a report, I have to talk in front of the meeting. Those are the days you know. All of a sudden then that becomes okay.
Speaker 2:You start to like, narrow down. This may not be all performance situations, but very specific to when you have to speak up and everybody's looking at you and it's tied to that fear of being judged and ridiculed and being embarrassed. And so you start to break down. Where in your life is this happening? And you brought up a good point earlier where you said well, if you're not required to do this at work, yeah, you probably wouldn't have to worry about it. But this is where you say when do I know if I need therapy or should I go talk to a therapist? Definitely, if there's something that's impairing your ability to function at work or at school or in some kind of social setting because of the anxiety around it, that's definitely an area that we want to help with. And when you explain to them after you're trying to help figure out is this a specific phobia versus is this something that can happen across different social settings?
Speaker 1:So there are two different kinds of people when it comes to personalities, like the introverts and extroverts. Right, and you could be on that line somewhere.
Speaker 2:There you go.
Speaker 1:If someone's an extrovert, they're probably less likely to be. You don't have a fear of public speaking. Is that? Was that true to you?
Speaker 2:Boy, that's a good uh question. I would. I mean my, my overall thought is uh, you know what? I actually am not fully, fully sure. I would say that your extroverts are naturally your people who are more comfortable in social settings. It doesn't necessarily mean they're the ones who want to get up and talk to a group of a hundred or a thousand people. Sure, so that's where I would really break down a public speaker, because that requires some kind of drive and uniqueness of wanting that role. And so, um, getting up and being able to speak to crowds is a fear that I think that 40 it just goes. You can be extra extroverted or introverted and still have that fear there.
Speaker 1:It lies all over the spectrum.
Speaker 2:It lies all over. Yes, just because you're extroverted does not mean that you feel confident or you're the person that wants to get up and give that speech. So I think that's how strong that fear of public speaking is, because it's more about I don't. I'm so scared that I'm going to be ridiculed or shamed or say something, and so that fear is strong and it goes beyond personality types. But overall I think when people are in social settings, that social anxiety, that when you're extroverted, that there's a piece of you that functions well with that back and forth of having crowds, being able to go into a social setting and just have a personality where you're able to talk to several people without maybe knowing them, or you find your level of comfort right away in a room. It's like you kind of know how to work a room. Yeah and um, that's your, a piece of your biology or your personality, your physiology, it was.
Speaker 2:It relies on that and, and for somebody who's more introverted, it doesn't mean they don't ever want that social stimulation, but they don't crave it as much. It doesn't feed their spirit, their soul in the same way it does an extrovert. So that's a really big topic. I think that's another good show for us to talk about, because it's not necessarily disordered. It's more looking at. How do you understand these types of personalities? Because I think in relationships, extroverts and introverts are drawn together and they're opposite.
Speaker 2:Yeah, opposites attract yeah, opposite, attract, well, they do, but then it's, it is a I. I have a big personal opinion on um, how that, how well they can function, or I guess in my opinion, the extroverts have to uh, change, do more of the adjusting and changing when you have, when you're with an introvert really, oh, that's interesting yeah, and you know okay that that's my personal um, I'm fairly extroverted and so I guess I think that the extroverts are, um, kind of called out more for their behavior.
Speaker 2:Yeah, uh, maybe shamed a little bit more for it. Um, because it's more somehow looked at as you need attention, but it's it's not about attention. It's more somehow looked at as you need attention, but it's it's not about attention. It's about stimulation of interacting with other people. And so if you get an extrovert into a room of people and they start to light up and they start to feel good and they're talking and laughing and bouncing from conversation to conversation, they're talking and laughing and bouncing from conversation to conversation. They're in the zone and it has.
Speaker 2:It means that, um, it's, it's, they're having a physiological reaction to something that feels right for them, it's stimulation, it's, and it's good for them. And then so that's that's more about um, uh, what, what people are looking for. So that's more about what people are looking for. So that's how we kind of separate that difference between oh, and now you have to give a speech. So even if you're extroverted and you claim that back and forth with people, they would still have that same response, maybe at a different level of intensity.
Speaker 2:So I think that overall, yes, introverts can develop into these powerhouse speakers and extroverts will still can also have that avoidance of. I can work a room and I enjoy every exciting adventure I go on in life, but I don't want to get up and do that kind of talk. Yeah, yeah, so that you brought us down a whole nother interesting comment, which is awesome because I think our listeners they're fine with us veering off because we just get to talk about more interesting topics, parts of personality and and how complex we are as humans yeah, there's many, many roads, like you know.
Speaker 1:We could go down and stuff.
Speaker 2:So right, right, but I like the, the public speaking and I I do tell people when I was um because people will come up. This is something I get more anxiety performance anxiety when I talk to um a group of, let's say, 10 people, and if you put me in a room you know I, I would rather talk to an auditorium full. I could talk to thousands of people, you know whatever, but put me in with 10 people that um maybe even know me well, I'll have much more public speaking anxiety about that.
Speaker 1:Sometimes it could be even like more anxious and anxiety inducing when you do know the people.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:If you don't know anybody, then it's like, well, these are people that don't know me. I could say whatever. Right, I can make those mistakes and you know it doesn't really matter. But when you're around people you like and maybe even respect, it can be really pretty tough.
Speaker 2:Right, and I think that's something to consider where there's always this different level of how much stress we allow to get into our minds allowed to get into our minds. So I guess I would feel that same way when I, if I was in a group of peers, other psychologists, a room full of different views and trainings and opinions, and if I'm up speaking, I think again my anxiety threshold would be higher more fear of being judged, more fear of people maybe not totally agreeing with what I'm saying, more experts that could challenge me, and so that my, my fear about doing that specific speaking event would be elevated and I would probably do, um, have a lot more anxiety leading up to that. But in my mind, the way I teach patients and the way I do it myself is taking that, you know, and a lot of times the fear is so strong because we catastrophize it that means we're thinking the absolute worst.
Speaker 1:The worst of the worst. Yeah Right, they're all going to hate me. No one's going to talk to me anymore.
Speaker 2:Everybody's going to get up and walk out, um, whatever your fear is. And then you have to take it and you have to de-catastrophize it. So when you ask, like what can people do who are fearful and who want to give them to this and they want to be able to speak, um, give public talks with more confidence, that's part of saying what's my biggest fear about it. And then how can I decatastrophize that? What's the odds that everybody will hate my speech? What's the odds that I do not have one intelligent thing to say today? What's the odds that somebody is going to just totally attack me and put me on the spot and purposely try to embarrass me?
Speaker 1:Yeah, like a heckler kind of there you go yeah.
Speaker 2:A heckler, somebody challenging in the crowd. Yep, that's one step. Another thing that really works is rehearsing. It doesn't mean you have to memorize, but because even that can get stressful. But this was something I did in my early days of. I was not always a natural public speaker. When I was young I actually had severe social anxiety like almost debilitating it felt. And so now that this is something I do, it was. It happened naturally and gradually and I had to practice and rehearse and make sure when my confidence was low, I had to build up to a level of understanding that I could do this.
Speaker 1:Yep, I was dumb. I was same situation with me. The way I improved was practice, practice, practice. Go through your PowerPoint or whatever you're using over and over and over again, okay, and that was the best tool I've ever used Practice, practice, practice, practice and over and over again. And that was the best tool I've ever used Practicing, practice, practice, practice, rehearsing yeah, Right, and it's like practice makes prepare. Practice makes prepare. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Because I normally even want to say yeah. I'm not yeah, I bet you're a little bit of a perfectionist too.
Speaker 1:In some ways I am, but I know when I the idea of public speaking. I know I'm not going to deliver a perfect speech, it's not going to happen, but I want to be as good as I possibly can be.
Speaker 2:And I think part of that is a lot of people who care. They have that fear of public speaking because they do care. They, they don't want to say the wrong thing. They and many people struggle with oh well, it has to be perfect, otherwise I don't want to do it and, like you said, well, that's really hard with a speech. You have to nail it where it's perfect. So there's all this element of how do you try to be perfect, and that's why I said let's try to be prepared, because perfection with public speaking is not there.
Speaker 1:Perfection in almost any aspect of life is impossible.
Speaker 2:Right, there you go. So this is another great example. Another thing that I can say is to start small Practice with and this is what I'll do in therapy with individuals if they're worried about reading in public or speaking will start small, and that's called exposure.
Speaker 2:So exposure therapy and while you're doing exposure therapy it can be gradual or it can be intense. You know where it's more. It all depends on the readiness of your patient, the timing of the event Also. Sometimes, if there's something big coming up and they need to prepare and try to get somewhere faster, you might have to up the intensity of the treatment.
Speaker 1:To get them ready.
Speaker 2:To get them ready and just coming in to start, that is, allowing them an opportunity to address this fear thought and then to really start to have a plan on. I can do this, but I need some tools, I need some steps in the right direction, and there are other things that we can do that are beyond the scope of this exact session. But there are ways to talk with a psychiatrist. There are certain treatments that can help people who have really extreme I'm talking about the extreme anxiety where they've done a lot of coaching, they've done a lot of rehearsing. They are just really struggling to get there and they have to really white knuckle stuff and it's causing a lot of distress because maybe at work they can't avoid these speeches and they have to give one. You know this many times, so many times.
Speaker 2:Those are other situations where I'd say you know we need that. That's talking about intensity and what type of intervention we have to look at based on how, the severity of your symptoms and how much this could be bothering somebody. So that's all of the stuff that's included. But if you bring this to your site like somebody like me as a psychologist, if you bring this to your site like somebody like me is a psychologist. There could be several different ways and I want people to know that. There are so many ways that we can try to help with this and it is something that we can treat and we can work on. So there's different avenues I guess I want people to know about, not just what we're talking about today.
Speaker 1:There's not one way to do it.
Speaker 2:There's not one way to do it. There's not one way to do it, and so if you're a listener, you're like oh, mine's too. You know I'm beyond. No, that's where I want you to say this is something that I can keep working on. You know, I can get more information on what other treatments work for this. Maybe I've tried the approach or a thought came about. That's where I want people to keep looking and keep talking to us so that we can try to come up with something that works for them.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:Right. So I really think people are going to be excited that we are talking about this. Really think people are going to be excited that we are talking about this and then, um, maybe feeling like they're ready to to do some more work in this area.
Speaker 2:Well, I'm sure many people are yeah I guess the other thing, now that I'm, I want to point out another thing that you said is you said oh, I remember a time when, um, I practiced and it really helped me. So it sounds like there was a time when I practiced and it really helped me. So it sounds like there was a time when you felt like you really got through something like this public speaking.
Speaker 1:Oh, I've made huge strides Like I'd be able to. Like it was so difficult to talk, I would stutter, stutter, stutter, lose my place. What was I talking about? And now I can at least stay on task. There's a lot of improvement that needs to be done, but, yeah, I've made a lot of progress.
Speaker 2:Well, so there you go, right, and it sounds like you kind of came up with your own plan on how do I tackle this. You know how do I?
Speaker 1:I mean, it's just like almost anything else that I personally do. I know that practice is important in anything you do, and I just apply that same logic to public speaking whenever I have to do more of that for, like, school or my career.
Speaker 2:Right, right, and that's, I would say that's to those individuals out there. That's where you start and that's the difference between like, well, when do I need to seek mental health for this? And that's when it starts to that fear of public speaking actually starts to cause distress in your life. It's distressing and it's also interfering with some aspect of your either your work, your family, your social. You know there has to be some kind of thing that is it's causing distress and some impairment. That's when you know the difference between a level of what can I tackle on my own and what's starting to get to that realm of becoming distressful and it's actually impairing my functioning.
Speaker 1:And at that point it's good to talk to somebody that could lead you, that could guide you.
Speaker 2:That can guide you and that's letting us in, so we can do an assessment, where I said we would figure out what this is and if it's something that we can treat, if it's something that we can diagnose and treat, and then we can help you start a treatment plan. And that's the piece that, um, that's where intensity comes in and we can always try different treatments that can can help you really um get at the symptoms and the severity. When I say intensity, severity of this okay.
Speaker 1:Yeah, severity, yeah, that's okay.
Speaker 2:I like that word more yeah, and then like um, if it's something too. I always think of time, like is this chronic? Has this been something you?
Speaker 2:know, yes, okay, so it's, how long has this been going on? And those are some things that can really help you get to the root cause of. Some people may have functioned really well with public speaking, of um, some people may have functioned really well with public speaking and then, all of a sudden, they start getting extreme anxiety, wanting to avoid it, and it's out of the blue they're like they regress they were, well, just something. Something's not the same about them. Why, all of a sudden, am I scared to do something like this?
Speaker 1:and is that? That, at that point, is probably a good question, like what you mentioned earlier, asking yourself like what's going on what's changed for me?
Speaker 2:yeah and sometimes those aren't easy things to answer no and then that's where it's coming in and saying wow boy, I was I. I I would never get nervous about public speaking. Now, all of a sudden, I'm getting real scared on, my palms are getting sweaty, I'm starting to forget my words and now I really don't want to do it anymore. That's not like me. Those are all great things to start saying. Something definitely changed there, and sometimes we don't know exactly what it is. So that's where seeking out some therapy can definitely help with that. So I really want to thank you for coming on and being brave, and you did disclose a little bit.
Speaker 1:Oh, that's fine.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I disclosed a little bit, and so hopefully we're encouraging our listeners to keep having these great conversations, and I do want you to think about a time when you anything in life where you're feeling insecure or you're trying to improve, just like what Harold did. He was like well, there was a time when I practiced, I practiced and I actually have yes, I had to give many speeches and then so that can really be a reminder that looking at a time when we did do this well or we got through this, when we have that example in our life, can really help boost us in that right direction.
Speaker 1:Acknowledge the progress we've made.
Speaker 2:There you go, there you go. So miigwech for tuning in and listening. Don't forget to download and give us a like on social media PS. Social anxiety can be very uncomfortable. One form of it could include public speaking. The first step is just to start tackling it and thinking where that fear may come from.