PsychologistSay...
Everyday life can be tricky - impossible even, and talking about it can be even more challenging. Trust me; I get it - being human has its challenges. Hello, I’m Dr. Tami, a Licensed Clinical Psychologist. I create candid conversations about what Psychologists are Saying related to everyday situations. I combine Indigenous & Modern Day Psychology - helping us understand behaviors impacting ourselves and others.PS: Here's to Being Human.
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PsychologistSay...
Letting Go: Navigating the Challenges of Forgiveness
Can understanding the psychology behind forgiveness mend your most strained relationships? Join us on "Psychologist Say" with Harold and me, Dr. Tami, as we unlock the secrets to forgiving and being forgiven. We dive deep into the emotional labyrinth that makes forgiveness so elusive, despite its apparent simplicity. From the difficulty of expressing heartfelt apologies to recognizing the hidden roots of our pain, we break down why letting go is often harder than holding on.
Explore the art of communication and boundary-setting in relationships with us. We tackle the tough questions: When should you speak up, and when is it better to let things slide? Learn why assertiveness is key in preventing resentment, and how understanding individual sensitivities can strengthen your bonds. Our conversation also takes you through the nuances of friendly banter and the importance of sincere apologies in maintaining healthy connections.
Finally, discover strategies for letting go, especially when forgiveness feels unattainable. We discuss the emotional toll of holding onto anger and offer ways to find peace by adjusting expectations. Learn how to accept people as they are and develop empathy for those who struggle with accountability. Whether it's dealing with a difficult colleague, a family member, or a friend, we provide insights to help you release emotional burdens and build more resilient, fulfilling relationships.
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The following is a series of candid conversations. The content is intended for informational purposes only and is not a substitute for seeking help from a mental health care professional. To learn more info regarding additional disclaimers, privacy policies and terms and conditions, please visit HelloDrTammycom.
Speaker 2:Bonjour and welcome to Psychologist Say, a podcast where I talk about the psychology of everyday living. I'm your host, Dr Tammy, and I'm joined today by my co-host, Harold. How are you doing today, Harold?
Speaker 1:I'm doing great. Hopefully everyone out there is doing great as well.
Speaker 2:Oh yes, our listeners. Thank you. If you're new to the podcast, we're so happy you checked us out. If you've been following us, we definitely appreciate you. Today we are going to talk about forgiveness.
Speaker 1:Yep. Forgiveness is a pretty good topic. I think a lot of people would be pretty interested in this one.
Speaker 2:I would say every, I mean everyone.
Speaker 1:Yeah, okay, right, I mean everyone, yeah, right.
Speaker 2:I would honestly predict every single person out there can relate in some way to having to either say I'm sorry, seek forgiveness ask or maybe want to ask for forgiveness from somebody else.
Speaker 2:Right for forgiveness from somebody else, and I think that, on the other hand, everybody has been in a position where they would love for someone to say sorry and ask for forgiveness, and so those are the things we're going to talk about today in terms of some of the psychological issues and concerns that can come up that could really block somebody from just doing a kind of apology that maybe could help somebody give forgiveness. And then also when sometimes we may, just as human beings have to choose forgiveness. So there's some layers here today and I want to get you thinking, because I know you really like to. I can already see, if you guys could, if there was a video Harold's boy. He's giving me this look. He's kind of like oh boy, I already know his brain's going. What's happening for you right now, harold?
Speaker 1:I guess, when I think of forgiveness, I think about how sometimes we could be in a place where we're hurting in a way, and some of that hurt is because we can't forgive somebody who's done wrong to us. When I think of forgiveness, that's where my mind initially goes.
Speaker 2:And being able to forgive. It comes from a place of hurt, right.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:There's a hurt, there's something that was either said or something that was done. A hurt. There's something that was either said or something that was done, something that hurt you psychologically, physically, emotionally, spiritually. There are all these different levels of where that hurt can come from. Sometimes even, as humans, we don't even know for sure. Sometimes we just know we're hurt, and that can make it hard to even sometimes understand. What kind of an apology am I seeking when maybe I'm not 100% sure where my hurt is coming from? Have I spent a lot of time examining how I get hurt, what things hurt me most, and is that something that I'm even aware of, and am I able to communicate that to somebody who has hurt me?
Speaker 2:Yeah, oh man, that's kind of some deep stuff, that's some deep stuff, I mean, and that's why we're doing this on psychologist's sake. This isn't just about let's forgive and yeah, it's tough. It takes humility to say I'm sorry. I'm really taking this from a deeper level because I want our listeners to engage in this kind of conversation with us, because these are the tough conversations that we really don't have with ourselves have with ourselves Whenever we're looking for forgiveness, like how do you like?
Speaker 1:I guess I want somebody to come tell me I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I did this to you. Okay, but how do I, how do I get someone to even approach me in that way?
Speaker 2:Can we?
Speaker 1:be that direct, Can we be like?
Speaker 2:tell me. Tell me you're sorry, you sure can. Okay, that doesn't mean it will be genuine, no, but that is something that some people seek. They're more confrontational. They're more able to speak what they need. So a lot of how we deal with forgiveness and I'm sorry's or apologizing has to do with our communication style and how we get shit done. So there are many people who would love to have an apology but would never tell the person. They're just hoping it happens someday.
Speaker 1:Happens like naturally in a way.
Speaker 2:Wouldn't that be best.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I would think so.
Speaker 2:I would think 100% of the time we would want that to happen, naturally. Yet I think a lot of the research shows that's not the way people are functioning. It turns out saying I'm sorry is very difficult, and that's why I'm going on a deeper level, because examining why this is so hard when it seems so damn easy it's two words.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it seems easy. But I mean, I've been in a position before where I've done something wrong and I've had to say I'm sorry, and that could be.
Speaker 2:And did you just do it naturally or did it take some? You know?
Speaker 1:A little push. Usually a little bit of both, I guess Sometimes that happens naturally. Sometimes I need a little push. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Sure, okay. So I would think what happens is, if it's something maybe minor, that we consider a minor insult, or we didn't totally damage somebody, we didn't. You know, it's something that it's easier for me to say I'm sorry that I ate your pizza.
Speaker 1:Oh, yeah, you know, right, that's easy. Yeah, that's an easy one, for sure. Okay. But if it happens where like say I'm, maybe I act a certain way that I shouldn't have, maybe I've done something I shouldn't have done, and you know, saying sorry in those situations is a little more difficult.
Speaker 2:And why?
Speaker 1:do you think that is Well the severity of the issue, I suppose, or maybe well, sometimes it's the timing too. Sometimes it's hard to say apologize when things happen so quickly. You know what I mean. Like hmm.
Speaker 2:And yet you would like. It almost seems counterintuitive to wait.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it does, Because you should try to. It's easier to just let it out and then at least there's a little bit of relief there from being the person that's apologizing.
Speaker 2:You would think right, that's what I just said. It's easy, but now you're going. Oh whoa. No, this is actually hard. Otherwise, I think our whole world would be a much more peaceful place if we could acknowledge where we've stepped on somebody's toes. We've let our ego get in the way. We've tried to make judgment. We've tried to enforce control, say our part on what we believe or don't believe. Really, we want to exert power and control over somebody First.
Speaker 1:you mentioned acknowledgement right, so sometimes that could be the more difficult part If you're seeking an apology. Sometimes the person that trespassed against you they're not even aware that they did it.
Speaker 2:The transgressor. These are the situations where, for our listeners, go ahead and bring up a situation in your mind, because I know you're all thinking of one. I have several running through my mind and Harold's bringing up a very good point what if we assume they know? But now we're wondering if we don't even know why they were mad. Yeah. They hurt me, but do they know that I'm mad? Do they know they hurt me? Do they know what they've done?
Speaker 1:Yeah, there's been a lot of situations in my life where that was absolutely the case. They have no idea that I'm upset, or they have no idea that what they did was wrong.
Speaker 2:Because they can't read your mind, and so most times I mean, have you ever been, you know, just really surprised when somebody says, oh, that, just that hurt my feelings, and you look and think, oh gosh, I hadn't, I didn't know, I did that. So when it becomes like a bigger situation where we're seeking and we want somebody to say, I'm sorry we may wait on that wish for years, oh yeah. And we may grow in our own anger or sadness or feeling resentful.
Speaker 1:Anger even yeah.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, and that can go on for years. And what if this person had no idea that they hurt you? And then there's a division, or a divide or this unsaid hurt.
Speaker 1:That's just kind of like festering, festering.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and that's where I think when you first said well, can you just walk up to somebody and say you know? Hey, man, I think you need to apologize to me. I'm going. Yes, do that, Because that at least allows a conversation between oh you're right, you know, versus what the hell are you talking about? I don't remember hurting you, but that ability to confront somebody is a personality style of I need to get this taken care of. I can't avoid this. I can't be passive. I cannot expect that they even know. I don't even know if they know. So there are personalities that are like that. They'll come up and say we need to talk because you did something and you're acting as if you didn't, and I can't function that way. So let's talk about this, and what that can do is then get that clarification of are you aware of what you did or what you said, that that hurt me and I'm pissed, or I'm mad, or I feel resentful, or I feel like you know.
Speaker 1:I've been in that situation as well. I mean, I've been in pretty much every little situation we mentioned here and you mentioned before. Our listeners probably have as well.
Speaker 2:Our listeners have been through all of these.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And they've been on both sides.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and it's difficult to gauge. Sometimes it's difficult like, okay, I'm suddenly offended by something somebody said, but it's like, should I even speak up about this? I'm not sure if it's even worth it on the person in the situation. You know, because you know you, you choose your battles pick your battles.
Speaker 2:That's exactly yeah, so I you know I think in those situations I want people to think about um, how do I even like little things if it's bothering me enough? Uh, can I be more assertive? And because sometimes, many times, we rationalize, not sticking up for ourselves Like, oh, I'm going to let that slide. Oh, boy, that sarcasm sounds like there's some truth behind what you're telling me, or boy? What you just said, really didn't sound like it was working in my favor, but I'm going to let that go, Let it go yeah.
Speaker 2:Now, if you continually do that and if this is somebody you care about, then guess what's happening again?
Speaker 1:It's going to repeat.
Speaker 2:It's going to come on more and more, and guess how many times you're going to confront it.
Speaker 1:Zero.
Speaker 2:Zero. Zero, because the more we let something slide with a certain person, the more comfortable they become and the harder it is to confront them on. Hey, you know, when you tease me about my like, maybe somebody teases somebody about their weight, like, oh, boy, you're getting, you're picking up some weight, or boy, your shirt looks kind of tight. You know, these like mean spirited jokes and if they keep coming and it's not addressed, then they're basically saying, oh, you're okay with this. So this is yeah, so it's like reinforcing that.
Speaker 1:Depending on the person. Like, say, if it's a friend saying those jokes, depending on the friend, like if it's a lifelong friend, those kinds of jokes kind that's banter that's banter.
Speaker 2:Yes, that's like friendly. That's something, though, I would again have to say. Is that a shared expectation of the and and is that something we know about each other? Do I give and dish as much as you do? Yeah and are we? Have we established that we're okay with this?
Speaker 1:Okay, but when establishing that it doesn't have to be said, it could just be kind of Felt yes, unsaid, yeah, okay.
Speaker 2:And I think in those situations, that's where we're not seeking forgiveness, we're not feeling resentful, yeah, we're not feeling like cut by what they said, because this is my friend and this is banter, yeah.
Speaker 1:It's fun usually.
Speaker 2:And I enjoy it and and I do think that friends go. You know they break that up sometimes and they go one step further than you and you might give them a look or go. Whoa.
Speaker 1:You notice the seriousness.
Speaker 2:You can feel that shift in the energy, and that's a good time to go. Oh whoa, you went too far there.
Speaker 1:Or the friend may then back with something a little bit meaner, and then they're like oh, I'm just joking, I'm just joking, but I think I mean. I felt the seriousness in that too, even though the jokes weren't directed at me.
Speaker 2:Right, and that's the shift in the mood and that's what I want to talk about, with apologizing and saying I'm'm sorry and giving forgiveness. So when somebody has enough power or empowerment to say, you know, I just really didn't like the way you said that, and then the person on the receiving end what they just did was minimize that.
Speaker 1:Yes, yeah, or they're displacing it somehow they're making it something else.
Speaker 2:They're saying well, you shouldn't feel that way, because I was joking, yeah, yeah, okay. So basically they're minimizing and instead of saying, oh wow, thank you for letting me know that, or hey, I'm sorry.
Speaker 1:Yeah, my bad, I shouldn't have maybe I shouldn't have worded that. My bad yeah.
Speaker 2:But instead and that's something that we need to learn about when we appalled when somebody is courageous enough to confront us on our actions, even if we're teasing or we're this is where a mature, healthy and this is where we're all striving to be I think we want to be able to go. Oh my bad. But then we get defensive, we feel guilt, we may even feel some shame for hurting our friend, so instead we don't want to feel that. So then we minimize what they're feeling to protect ourselves from our own behavior.
Speaker 1:Now that's. I've never heard a claim that way.
Speaker 2:Now think about how often we do that to each other as humans. Oh, come on, stop crying around, we're just having right. Oh, come on, I'm just teasing, you know.
Speaker 1:Yeah, but I mean, at the same time there's the situations where someone is kind of taking things a little too hard. That does happen too, so there's a kind of taking things a little too hard. That does happen too, so there's a kind of nuance within the situation, I guess.
Speaker 2:Well, and one thing to think about is that's that person's personality. Do you respect that? So if somebody is taking something too hard, somebody may be tackling an open wound that they're not seeing there, so that again could be minimizing an open wound that they're not seeing there, so that's again could be minimizing. Like well, this kind of banter is really I feel like you're getting hyper emotional or you're being hypersensitive. Again. That's kind of taking it away from what about what I'm saying is bothering you instead of trying to understand. It's kind of most times when individuals get upset, they have a big bleeding wound that we can't see, and so when we're hurting them we don't realize we're pressing right into that wound.
Speaker 1:And that internal wound yeah.
Speaker 2:Yep, and so we can't understand why they're reacting in such a what we would consider hyper emotional or hypersensitive.
Speaker 1:There's like a blind spot there. Yes, hyper-emotional or hyper-sensitive?
Speaker 2:There's like a blind spot there. Yes, and everybody has them, yeah.
Speaker 1:Right, because we don't know everything about everybody, and there's Even our closest people to us.
Speaker 2:Right. And so think how often that can happen in life, in work settings, in relationships with people that are longtime friends, with our family, where we could be pressing into this wound and really minimizing it instead of just saying okay, listening, like, okay, you just told me something. Yeah, it doesn't feel good to put a mirror up and make me look at myself for what I just did, but I need to pay attention to what you're trying to tell me, not take what you're telling me and shrink it so that I don't have to look at myself or feel guilty, bad or shame for having hurt you in some way. That's that piece of trying to get to that emotional maturity where we put down our ego, or at least we try to put it on the side, we open up to being a little vulnerable, we can admit that we have weaknesses and we can admit that there's a piece of us that maybe does try to hurt people sometimes.
Speaker 2:Maybe we're a little vindictive, in a way Of course I mean yes, we're not perfect, yeah, but boy, it's tough to get called out on it.
Speaker 1:Oh, hell, yeah, it is.
Speaker 2:Because you feel embarrassing, right.
Speaker 1:Absolutely yep.
Speaker 2:But the more that person on the receiving end puts it back on the person hurting them. It's like empowering for them, even if they don't get it. I'm sorry.
Speaker 1:Yeah, at least they're able to stand up for themselves.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and put it back on them, and so what we're really seeking is forgiveness. That's why we want the apology, because forgiveness can feel so good. It's like none of us want to walk around with this internal anger that just grows and grows. No. I don't. Internal anger resentment can actually physically make us sick. It can impact our mood, it could impact our sleep, it could impact our functioning in life because our brain is focusing on. I can't find peace with this or I haven't been able to.
Speaker 1:Yeah, this thing's eating at me.
Speaker 2:This is eating at me.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I can't let it go.
Speaker 2:And I'm not letting it go. I'm holding on to resentment because I've been hurt so bad and I haven't received an apology. And, like the research is showing, it's very difficult even when people know they're in the wrong, not like a minor, like a major. I'm wrong, I hurt you, the thing I said was horrible, you know. It's that and that is the thing that people. It's so tough for us to just do that, without making excuses for what we said, without minimizing the other person's feelings.
Speaker 1:Or qualifying the statement in some kind of way. Well, I meant it like this, or I didn't mean it like yeah.
Speaker 2:Or blaming, blaming or shaming. I mean, that is one of the most, I think, pathological ways to handle when you've hurt somebody is to shift blame on them.
Speaker 1:Mm-hmm, it's not my fault, it's yours or this person's.
Speaker 2:Well, I think that's you know. You see it often when, if you're in a relationship with somebody and they step out maybe there's infidelity or they and then instead of saying I'm sorry, that wasn't right, that hurt you, my behavior was wrong. We committed to a solid monogamous relationship and I stepped out on that and that's mine. I'm owning that. I'm sorry for that, that I hurt you with that Versus. Well, you haven't been attentive, you haven't talked attentive.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you haven't talked to me in months. We haven't had been intimate, you don't. I don't even think you like me anymore, so now you're upset, you basically drove me to infidelity. Do you get the difference there?
Speaker 1:Oh yeah, for sure, that's a.
Speaker 2:And I went straight for a big gun here. Yeah, that's a big one In any kind of relationship. When somebody steps out and they shift the blame on you, that could be more hurtful than anything that takes something and just blows it and say I'm not going to accept responsibility for my action. I am going to tell you what you have done. Hopefully you think you made me do this.
Speaker 2:It's your fault and I you know, and then that will help me deal with my shame and my guilt if I even have any. So now that's the next level. Some people may do the blame and shame stuff not to avoid guilt, just because they don't want to acknowledge they did it. It's not part of what they want to agree to. They could have some hurtful traits, they could maybe have lack of empathy, a little bit of like narcissism. It could be really hard to get an I'm sorry, a genuine I'm sorry, from somebody who's struggling with very high ego and cannot really relate to how their behavior impacts others. So they can fake it a bit but genuinely be able to relate. So when we shift that blame that is why I say that's to me that's more pathological, it's somehow it's way more manipulative.
Speaker 1:When you say pathological, what do you mean?
Speaker 2:Well, I think of that as more like heavy-duty, clinical, like something that takes much more self-awareness. It's manipulative Pieces of our behavior. And this is all of us. I'm not saying we, you know, I believe that we do this. You know, as I know, we all do this. So we're all somewhat pathological oh, of course. Okay person in every situation. So it doesn't mean that you're a horrible person for doing it. Yet if that's the way you're going to acknowledge and go through your life, that's where I said that becomes more pathological to me, because it's about avoiding accountability, avoiding just your responsibility of just saying yes, I did that, I'm sorry, or even, yes, I did that.
Speaker 1:Just that, not even I'm sorry. Yeah, just the acknowledgement.
Speaker 2:Instead of yeah, I did that, but you.
Speaker 1:But you did something worse. Yeah, or you made you drove this.
Speaker 2:Or you did this to me before. I couldn't get over that. You know, just a constant shifting of um responsibility. This is all good stuff so yeah, it's great, yes this is why we're doing this on.
Speaker 2:Psychologists say this isn't just about forgiveness or saying I'm sorry. It's talking about the um, the personality, the psychology behind it, and it's exploring it more in detail of where some of us could be really stuck, even ourselves or with somebody who really just is struggling in this area. We could have a boss that maybe has never apologized. We could have a parent that has never acknowledged that they did some hurtful things during our childhood. So these are the kinds of things of course. This is why this talk is for everybody, and we've been on the receiving end and we've been on that end of I don't want to apologize. We've been. You know, we've kind of shut down a bit.
Speaker 1:As far as like if someone's in a situation where they're experiencing the displacement of blame like you're the one blaming. If you're in a situation where you open up, like hey, this may feel bad and they put it back on you, how do you navigate something like that?
Speaker 2:Oh, that's a really good. So that is where you're acknowledging and you can go. Okay, wait, I just heard this on this podcast. I just told you that by you, you don't like it when I get all dressed up, you know, and we go out, you know. This is say this is a couple and I told you that I dress up because it makes me feel good. I'm not trying, you know, and you say well, I just like you better when you're not dressed up. Shouldn't you feel good about that? I like you natural.
Speaker 1:So this is like yeah, yeah, there's some give and take there, sure.
Speaker 2:Right, but instead of just saying, okay, hold on, I get what you're saying, that's fair yeah.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:I love the way you look naturally, but you know what. I need to be aware that you like doing this. This is part of your personality and you're not doing it to please me and you're doing it to be you.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:So I get that, and sometimes I just don't know how to shut my mouth sometimes.
Speaker 1:But what if you're in a situation where they won't acknowledge that?
Speaker 2:Well, I kind of just demonstrated the way it could go. Yeah, it could go. If you said, you know what, I'm going to speak up about this, and then I think it's something that you have to look at and start to say, okay, based off of what I'm hearing about how difficult it can be to apologize, I'm going to start really thinking about this person that I need to hear things from and trying to understand why it's so difficult for them and try to tap into that a bit.
Speaker 1:Well, if you try to tap it into it but there's not relent, I guess in a way or they're not giving you what you're looking for.
Speaker 2:Well, and you also-.
Speaker 1:Are those red flags, or should they-?
Speaker 2:Well, I would say, what you're, what's happening too, is you got to think about. Maybe this is the first time that you're really trying to tap into what's going on with you. You know, I know I'm angry. I know you do things to hurt me, but I'm you're not really ever things to hurt me, but you're not really ever. You kind of always minimize whatever I say, you blow it off. You never give me what I'm looking for. So I'm going to just stop, and the next time you do something that hurts or offend me, I'm going to really just start to look at you and start to wonder, like, what in your life has made it so hard for you to be able to acknowledge when you've hurt somebody?
Speaker 1:because this is a pattern and it could like maybe step from childhood. Maybe they experienced things in their childhood or whatever it may be, all kinds of situations you could say uh, you know what is it.
Speaker 2:is it hard for you to say sorry? You could even say Be very straightforward like that.
Speaker 1:Can you say sorry? Are you able to do it?
Speaker 2:And they could say well, I don't think I've done anything wrong.
Speaker 1:That in itself would create an argument.
Speaker 2:So that's where I tell a lot of my patients I work with. I say, well, be careful on how much energy you waste on something. We only have so much energy. People always say, oh, I'm going to live to 100. I'm like, no, your body only has so much energy. And so picking an argument trying to get somebody to believe they need to feel accountable or sorry, is a waste of your energy.
Speaker 1:I guess what I'm trying to get to is like at what point do you just have to let go, or do you ever let go At?
Speaker 2:what point do you just have to let go, or do you ever let go? Well, part of it is maybe there's acceptance of knowing I've been with maybe this person or I've worked with this boss for 20 years. They've never acknowledged when they've been wrong. I don't think they're going to start now. I have awareness of this and I'm still choosing to do what I do with this person. That's knowing I'm not a victim. I'm choosing to be here, and that can be so empowering for many people.
Speaker 1:If you're choosing, to not change it up, the blame stuff and the minimizing.
Speaker 2:Well, you can call it what it is, too now.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you can walk away and go. Oh boy, yeah, he just minimized what I said. But when you're talking to someone like that, sometimes it's not like, like you said, they won't even acknowledge.
Speaker 2:they never think they're wrong in those kinds of situations You're either going to persevere through that relationship, whether it be work, family, whatever. A lot of that is kind of acceptance of I would love to change this person.
Speaker 1:What if we don't want to accept?
Speaker 2:Then what are you doing about it? Because trying to convince them they've hurt you and they keep saying, but I haven't. Or they give you bad apologies, like, well, I'm sorry if what I said hurt you, I'm sorry if you're hurt by what I said. That's not an apology.
Speaker 1:No.
Speaker 2:That's again like I'm sorry, you're hurt.
Speaker 2:Yeah, blaming the person receiving that what I said and it hurt you. So the difference between so those are those. If there are people that may apologize very freely, but the way they did it does not, it's not genuine. That's where you start to go. Okay, this person has a problem with apologizing. There could be so many different layers to why it could be tough to just humble themselves. It could be tough to admit they did something wrong. It could be shame. It could be I don't want to feel any guilt, or it could be. I can't imagine why that would hurt you and I really can't. So I don't have empathy for that. So, no, I won't apologize unless I truly know I did something wrong. Do you see how much this has to do with, like, the personality of the person you're interacting with?
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, now what about forgiveness? Because we did a lot about apologizing. Now we're saying it's very tough To forgive someone else. How do we forgive somebody, maybe, when they refuse to apologize?
Speaker 1:I mean it depends on the situation. Like, I guess, say, somebody did one or two things to you over the years, but for the most part their intentions are good and whatnot. Like for me, like I would just let things go. But if things were repetitive it'd be a little different.
Speaker 2:And that's exactly.
Speaker 1:Very different actually.
Speaker 2:There you go, and that's exactly what I want our listeners to think about. You want to look at like how many times has this happened in this relationship? How severe was the injury, what they did to me, how severe was it? How much did it hurt? How many times does this happen and how many times has it been severe? What's the value of this person to me?
Speaker 1:happens and he throws you under the bus and he does that every single time, like that's something that I don't think, especially if I was to confront them about it and they continue to do it, then at that point that's unforgivable. I guess I wouldn't be able to forgive them.
Speaker 2:Okay, and then that's what can happen, too, when we don't forgive. We may move on, we may leave. We may move on, we may leave.
Speaker 1:We may sever relationships, we may change jobs, but before that there's a lot of internal frustration. Well at least for me, there is.
Speaker 2:And a lot of times that goes with you.
Speaker 1:Oh, after you leave the relationship, yeah, yeah, think back on it. It makes you feel negative, some kind of negative emotion.
Speaker 2:It definitely could.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:So that's where we start to look at forgiveness. When do I forgive when I haven't even had an apology? And I think there are so many people in this situation in life where we hold on to resentment. When we think of that person, we get sick, we get mad, we're angry, we avoid them. We may say mean things about them, we may avoid people who spend time with them because we don't like them. Look at how much time and effort we can put into something we thought we walked away from and forgave.
Speaker 1:But it's lingering around.
Speaker 2:And that's the piece that can make people sick. How do you truly look at somebody and let go of that hurt when they've never asked for it, but it's damaging you inside?
Speaker 1:How do you do it? How do you let it go?
Speaker 2:Well, the part of that is looking at well, how does it benefit me to hold on to it?
Speaker 1:Depending on the situation, it probably wouldn't benefit you at all. Like, how do you? I mean, that's the first thought you have. So if you acknowledge that there is no benefit, that it's only hurting me, right? How? What do we do after that?
Speaker 2:Part of it is how do I move forward from this? How do I sometimes it's that word acceptance looking at that person and not saying anything bad about them, not thinking anything bad about them.
Speaker 1:That's easier said than done, though.
Speaker 2:But yet this is the part of that where we have to grow up too. So this is the piece of us if we're holding on to resentment and we're not forgiving somebody because they didn't even ask for it or maybe they don't deserve it, but it's consuming our energy, time and space. And then we need to then say how is this benefiting me? And you said it's not, and I think most people would agree with you. That's a restart, saying okay, now how can I start to look at this person and accept that that's who they are and has nothing maybe it's not even anything personal against me. This person really struggles with I'm sorry, so I can accept them for that. I can start to look at them and even have some empathy for them, because that must be miserable, to not be able to just acknowledge where you've hurt somebody.
Speaker 2:So, what happened in his life or her life, I wonder.
Speaker 1:That pushed him towards having that kind of personality.
Speaker 2:Sometimes I look at people and I think, gosh, somebody really hurt you in the past. You know what I'm saying Versus like why do you not trust me? And then I have to sit and think, geez, somebody really hurt you in the past. So it's like you're having a tough time trusting me. It's not all about me. So I got to look at them in terms of a way of you continually hurt me. It was tough for you to develop trust and be vulnerable enough, but it sucks because I'm a psychologist. So it's really hard for me to not do this, not try to see where this is coming from.
Speaker 1:I could see that's where you're going is trying to see the other side of the coin.
Speaker 2:And for my own benefit.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so it's beneficial for the person who's hurting to kind of try to put themselves in the aggressor shoes, the transgressor shoes.
Speaker 2:And think you know, after this conversation it gives you new insight into anytime you're in that situation. You can observe it from this perspective. Now People have these invisible backpacks that they're carrying. I call them an open wound. We don't know there's reasons for our actions, even when we're assholes. You know when we're mean, when we're jealous, when we're hurtful, when we're, you know, just even trying to destroy somebody. You know through gossip or whatever's going on.
Speaker 1:Yeah, Any kind of addictive behavior.
Speaker 2:Yes, and it's always that there's so much hurt in that person who's doing it, and it's hard when you're the person getting hurt to see their hurt.
Speaker 1:Yeah, Assuming it's a normal person, they're probably like there's kind of like maybe some torture inside of them.
Speaker 2:Oh, of course.
Speaker 1:Or they've at least experienced that.
Speaker 2:Because people who are at complete peace with themselves or have good self-awareness, they feel pretty content. They're not out trying to be mean, destroy or hurt others on purpose. There are people in the world who could go oh my, I am sorry. I'm sorry I did that. There are definitely people who are also good at apologizing. It's just not the norm and I think part of it is our egos are so big. But I think when you're talking about like, how do we get there, I think it's like well, what's at stake for me? What do I stand to lose by not taking a good look in the mirror and saying how can I get better at acknowledging my faults when I hurt somebody? How can I tap in and feel that maybe that shame or that guilt for hurting somebody and give a genuine I'm sorry?
Speaker 1:And you have to feel it right. You have to feel those kinds of emotions to kind of get through, If you can. Is that pathological or is that like psychopathy or something?
Speaker 2:Well, if you have narcissism, it could be very difficult to have empathy for somebody that you've hurt in extreme form.
Speaker 2:Okay, or if you're yes, if you're antisocial. So these are things where if somebody has difficulty actually expressing or feeling empathy, you know that's really hard for them. They can't fake it. You know they can try to like, minic it or read the definition of what it should look like. You know what I mean. So those are tough situations because those individuals could repeatedly hurt somebody and never think it's. They never ever really say sorry or think it was ever really their fault. And so those are some of the things where it's like well, that's a true. If you decide to stay with somebody or have a friend like that and you go, well, that's a true limitation of this person I'm choosing to be friends with. I don't just keep pushing, pushing, pushing change when maybe there is no change. Maybe I got to accept that this is that piece of my friend. That's really sucked.
Speaker 1:This is who they are.
Speaker 2:This is who they are, and I could either walk away from this friendship or I've been in it for 20 years, so I'm going to keep it going because this person, besides all that, is worth something to me.
Speaker 1:There's like a net positive to the relationship, like there's bad and there's good, but overall I want the good, so I'll keep going with the bad. That kind of comes with it.
Speaker 2:And I have to and I want to understand where that's coming from for this person. Yeah, you can do that. Well, there's some people that say well, they've just always been like that, and that could be a rude boss. It could be somebody who says hurtful things all the time. People are like, well, that's just the way they are, and so a lot of people have just come to accept them. And those are those moments where when you got to choose. Every person has to choose. Yeah.
Speaker 2:I mean just think how easy. How many people are like oh I wish you would just leave that person. They're not good enough for you. There's no way this, whatever is going on, that individual is choosing to be with somebody who maybe has no empathy for them Sounds terrible and we're hoping I mean most people I think it's looking at I can have empathy. I do feel sorry, I feel bad, but I feel so bad for me to acknowledge that out loud because then I have a lot of shame, so I'd rather kind of not.
Speaker 2:Yeah, hide away from Just hide away from oh my gosh, some people. It's more about once you say it, you actually did it, and then it feels, more real to them.
Speaker 2:maybe it's very real, and so it really has to do with building yourself up to be comfortable to talk about things that you've done to hurt people, and then now everybody the listeners. The next chance you have an opportunity to let somebody know. There are so many things that you can do, to start to say what you need and then to observe if this person can give you what you need.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah. So say something and hopefully you know things will work out in the end, but there's a chance they might not be receptive to it.
Speaker 2:Right and that sometimes that really sucks.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, I would imagine.
Speaker 2:Well, I think, you know, this was a really good. I mean, really, we only touched on it's a piece of this, but it really got us talking about. We're human. You know this is tough. We don't like to be wrong, we don't like to humble ourselves. We want to. You know, we want to think we make good decisions. And it does suck when you hurt somebody and you have to call yourself out on that. But there's a book that I'm going to. It's called Sorry, Sorry, Sorry. The Case for Good Apologies. I haven't read it. This is one that just came up, so I want to at least give you guys another resource, because so much today we could have talked about, but I do want to list off. In this book they said there are six steps to a great apology. Okay, so one is to just say you're sorry, Not that you regret it, and not that you're devastated because that's turning about you. Second, say what it is that you're apologizing for. Be specific.
Speaker 1:Yep, I'm sorry I broke your bike or something like that, yeah.
Speaker 2:Right, I'm sorry I stole your car. Yeah, I'm sorry I stole money from you. You know these kind of boom, boom, boom, specific. Next, show that you understand why it was bad. Take ownership. Show you understand why you caused hurt.
Speaker 1:So that'd be like, say the boss example Ownership Show you understand why you caused hurt. So that'd be like, say the boss example Like I shouldn't have done that because it hurts your career or your position in the company, something like that.
Speaker 2:Exactly, I made you stay late. You told me your child had an event. I said I need you tonight. Anyway, I'm sorry that I put our company's value over your family's, so it's ownership. I did that. I asked you to stay, even though you told me what was valuable to you. I let you know, basically, if you like your job, this is valuable and I'm going to say that wasn't a very good leader, it wasn't good for me, but it worked because I got you to stay and I'm sorry. So these wasn't a very good leader, I wasn't good for me, but it worked because I got you to stay and I'm sorry. Right, so these apologies, they take some work. Next one don't make excuses. So this is where you know. I think I gave a really good example of I stepped out on this relationship but dang, you know we haven't been intimate, you haven't been talking to me, I don't even think you like me.
Speaker 2:So, of course, I went and found somebody else, and how dare you get upset with me for that? Next, say why it won't happen again, but also, what steps are you going to take that prevents it from happening again?
Speaker 1:Oof, that's an even tougher one, I think. I mean, like I said, depending on the situation.
Speaker 2:Well, let's say it's again, we'll go to a friendship. Basically, maybe, this one friend is constantly left out of a gathering every now and again. And then they're saying why do? Why wasn't I invited? Oh gosh, you know, sorry, I thought it just was an accident, or we didn't think you wanted to come, because you always say no, so we just didn't, you know. Well, that really hurt. I felt left out. I mean, even though I can't always go, I still want to be invited. And then so now this is where we could say okay, you know what I'm going to do. Better, this won't happen again. I'm going to make sure that you're invited, even if I think you won't come. I'll make sure that you're invited, even if I think you won't come.
Speaker 1:I'll make sure to text you a week ahead of time. I'm going to text.
Speaker 2:I'm going to give you a call, if I can. I'm going to tell the other girls to reach out to you. This is what I'm going to do because I just heard that this hurts you.
Speaker 1:And these are the steps someone would take to avoid that.
Speaker 2:And then the last one that they say is if it's relevant, make reparations.
Speaker 1:So if you can do that, so like I stole money from you, I'm sorry I won't do it again. I'm working on it. Here's the money back.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:Okay, those are pretty informative steps.
Speaker 2:I think you know this is at least giving our listeners something to you know, something concrete to try to work on when you're looking. And the book I think that would be a great read, just so we can start understanding ourselves. Because if we don't know where we're struggling with I'm sorry, or we don't understand why, it's even hard for us to forgive, or maybe we forgive too soon or maybe we rationalize. Either way, it's going to help us understand ourselves better. Therefore, we'll be able to understand those around us a little bit better and how complex something that seems really easy can be. Miigwech PS. When in doubt, just say I'm sorry.