PsychologistSay...
Everyday life can be tricky - impossible even, and talking about it can be even more challenging. Trust me; I get it - being human has its challenges. Hello, I’m Dr. Tami, a Licensed Clinical Psychologist. I create candid conversations about what Psychologists are Saying related to everyday situations. I combine Indigenous & Modern Day Psychology - helping us understand behaviors impacting ourselves and others.PS: Here's to Being Human.
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PsychologistSay...
Embracing Indigenous Wisdom: Redefining Happiness and Life's Cycles
Join us for an enriching conversation with Miss Debbie, an esteemed Anishinaabe elder, as she invites us to rethink our relationship with happiness and life's journey. Discover how seeing life as a gift, rather than a struggle, can transform daily challenges into celebrations. Through a captivating exchange, Miss Debbie and I contrast different perceptions of "work" and happiness, illustrating how language and perspective profoundly shape our experiences. With the metaphor of a baby's first cry as a joyful sign of life, she encourages us to greet each day with gratitude and celebration.
Our journey doesn't stop there, as we examine the cyclical nature of life that Miss Debbie shares, challenging the linear views prevalent in Western psychology. The wisdom of our ancestors and the teachings of interconnectedness offer a fresh lens on happiness—one rooted in understanding our emotions as integral parts of us. Through the symbolism of the seven rocks, representing virtues like love and honesty, we emphasize the importance of community and living in harmony with all of nature. This episode is a bridge between complex psychological insights and practical well-being, offering actionable steps for a fulfilling life while fostering balance and respect for all living beings.
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The following is a series of candid conversations. The content is intended for informational purposes only and is not a substitute for seeking help from a mental health care professional. To learn more info regarding additional disclaimers, privacy policies and terms and conditions, please visit HelloDrTammycom.
Speaker 2:Bonjour, welcome to Psychologist Say, a podcast where I talk about the psychology of everyday living. I'm your host, dr Tammy. If you're a return listener, thank you for the support and if you're new, welcome. I'm joined today by one of our local Anishinaabe elders. Her name is Miss Debbie and I'm excited to have her on the show today. Debbie, do you just want to say hello to the audience?
Speaker 1:Amen, it's a beautiful day today, thank you.
Speaker 2:Wonderful. And so Miss Debbie listened to the podcast and she was really intrigued by the conversations that we've been having on Psychologist Say. Miss Debbie has been my teacher in our Anishinaabe teachings and our worldview could impact this conversation, and this is something we do in the clinic. Here we do this on a lower level where we're trying to enhance it, so I'm really glad she's here today to talk about one of the episodes on happiness. Now, Miss Debbie listened to the episode on happiness and several others, but she wanted to start with she and I having a good discussion about her reaction to Harold and I's conversation on what that means. And so, Debbie, do you want to just share some of your thoughts after listening to that one podcast? Sure.
Speaker 1:I think the first word that got my attention was the word work, and you mentioned that we have to work to be happy or we have to create it. And I don't want to disagree with you. It's good that we have different viewpoints at times, but for you, at this point in life, that's how you think about it and that's good. That's a good thing.
Speaker 1:For me, at the point of life where I'm at the word work according to how we think that this society thinks about that word, it might have a negative connotation. To me, work is a word that just motivates me to be self-nurturing, because I know what I'm going to feel after I have that little accomplishment, even if it's walking from the bed to the kitchen in the early morning when my hips are hurting. I know that I'm going to feel really good when I sit down, and so I'm looking forward to that accomplishment and that good feeling. So there's no negative connotation to that. It's not work, it's a self-fulfilling thing that I got to do Right, or that I want to do or that is before me to do.
Speaker 2:Right, right, and I think and I know we've had this conversation actually just recently on the way that I word things I think I said life is a struggle. You know there's life is hard. And you said you know not to disagree with me, but you said that's not the way I view you know, that's not the words. And I think, when I'm using that word, I think the word that comes to mind is effort. That's the self, that's the self. Work is that there's an effort, that our mind has to decide to take some sort of action, if that's what requires us to get to that good moment, that feeling good.
Speaker 1:For me, effort is already a wonderful thought because I know I'm receiving from there and I'm going to feel good after that. I feel good about doing it already. See to me, saying life is hard is putting a negative thought there and talking about the negative. For me, life is a gift and so it's not hard. I'm glad to take care of it by feeling good about all of these things other people might think of as work, when it's actually taking care of our life, this beautiful gift that we've been given, and helping us to move forward into the next phase of the week or the day or phase of your life. Right, you know?
Speaker 1:we have those phases, seasons.
Speaker 2:So could you explain for our listeners the seasons, because I introduced you as an elder, but I think it would be really helpful for our listeners to understand what season of the life you're in and then maybe the season of life I'm in and how that relates to our Anishinaabe perspective on even the daily. You know, waking up to think of life as a gift versus, you know my brain thinks this is. You know, I got to work and it doesn't mean I just have to go to work to make a living. It means I need to eventually put one foot. I have to trigger my brain to get out of bed, and there are some people like me that actually have to talk themselves into just moving into action for the day. I would love to wake up and just have that internal feeling of gosh, this is a gift. Get up, start living.
Speaker 1:And I think a lot of our listeners would. When anything like that comes as soon as I open up my eyes, I'm already giving thanks that I can see. Okay, I'm already giving thanks, I can breathe. Think about it like this when you see your baby smile for the first time, that's not actually his first happy. His first happy was what people call as a cry, their first sound when they are born. And what does a cry say? The cry? In English, it means you're uncomfortable, but here for us, they're celebrating life, they're giving thanks for this. Oh wow, I'm in a different journey now.
Speaker 2:And this is. It's not really a cry, oh wow.
Speaker 1:I'm in a different journey now and this is it's not really a cry, it's we're celebrating life. I'm alive, like the buffalo. They're already alive because they're alive in the womb, but they're stepping into this new journey where they prepared for for nine months, you know, and wow, they made it. You know, Now let's celebrate. You know, it's that life we're celebrating. So, even opening up your eyes, you know so already. That's not his first happiness feeling. It's like some people are just now seeing it. But, like for me, when I hear that baby sound, mm-hmm, and it's just amazing that I could witness being there and enjoying his enjoyment of, or her of, making that first sound that first sound right, and Western medicine too right.
Speaker 2:They used to spank the baby's bottom when they were first born, well, as a sign to if they weren't making noise and if they weren't crying, right. So that was actually a way to get them to cry and that was saying oh, they're alive, they're responsive responsive there.
Speaker 1:But think about that as the first pain, the first hurt. What happens when they first the first born and some old guy comes and spank you on the bottom Right? You know, think if you're a girl you don't want to be spanked on the bottom.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I don't think they do that anymore. I mean, I don't know when they stopped doing that.
Speaker 1:That makes me sad. You may have a long ways to go.
Speaker 2:I mean, it may have happened to your children, right? You birthed them in the hospital and I know that there are some people bringing back the Indigenous birthing methods, but I know I was born in a regular hospital. I'm not sure what, how you know. Those are the things.
Speaker 1:I don't think we think about how did we start? That's a different culture that was demanded of us as indigenous people. We have to leave our old culture behind, Right, and we still in many ways. And so now we're just now recovering from that by taking and loving the concepts of the indigenous ways. You know, it's just. It's such a beautiful thing to be glad that we were given this opportunity to walk this journey in a different life, Like we came from that life over there and we got to experience this. And it's because we asked to do that Right from that life over there and we got to experience this.
Speaker 2:And it's because we asked to do that Right and that's going really. You know that's going to a level of teachings that you know many people don't have, that you know that when we're waking up in the morning even though I've been learning from you actively for about 20 years or longer I can see how much work I need to do on going back to the gift of just being alive for one. But I think that many of our listeners are searching for some of this peace that you are now living because you've spent most of your life reclaiming and relearning, and I would call it doing the work to find out and store and share teaching. So the work to me is a word that says I'm intentionally putting in effort, I'm making my mental decision, I'm not just thinking about it. I'm making my mental decision, I'm not just thinking about it, I'm putting action into my thought and that produces something that can then produce some feeling of joy or peace or happiness. And so we're talking to you in your season. You're in the winter season of your life, right?
Speaker 1:I would think that. Yes, look at my hair. It's white, like in the winter season of Mother Earth. She has four seasons every year, and so in the winter she has that white blanket on. And then she gets to renew. But as people, when we're in our winter season, then we're getting ready to enter that new life again, that new phase, Correct and when we leave.
Speaker 1:And so getting ready is when we leave, where I mean just for our listeners ready is when we leave, where I mean just for our listeners we will be going to, we're getting ready to go toward that new phase of life where it's going to be just as exciting and wonderful as it is when the new baby was born and made that first sound. You know, here I am and there's a deities there and our creator. We think from here, but we get to go to, we're not dying, we're not dying, it's a new life, it's a wonderful thing.
Speaker 2:Transition.
Speaker 1:Because my body has got its winter season. So my mind wants to do more than my body will allow me to at this time, right, do more than my body will allow me to at this time, right. And so I know that my body's getting ready to go into that new phase. So the life, the spirit, will leave the body, but it's just going into a new phase when we leave, and a new season we get to go. A new season, possibly, maybe, in the other world. There are many seasons, we don't know, okay, but that's what the black color, in my way of thinking, is. That black is my faith that it's got to be a good place, because my mom's there, my grandpa's there, my grandma's there, okay, you know, all of those that left before me. Get to meet all these wonderful ancestors, right, right, and imagine what I might learn, because, you know, while we're here, I appreciate that knowledge so much and I'm always grasping reading and everything and imagine what we'll be able to learn when we get there.
Speaker 2:What a wonderful thought.
Speaker 1:What a wonderful thought Right.
Speaker 2:And when I'm looking at it, you know to our listeners here, if you could see Miss Debbie right now, her eyes are just kind of really look, really, I would say optimistic, hopeful, but really secure in what she's saying. I guess she has a really light, bright look on her face when she just explained the season of life that she's in and the color that she talked about was black and that's representing her faith, that it's not just what we're told, it's what she believes, and tying in that, with and like what we don't know today, we can't see.
Speaker 1:So that might be a dark area because we're not familiar with that whatever it is. And Creator will give us enlightenment when it's time Right. When it's time Right, and if we don't get some questions answered, that's okay, because that's waiting for us when we get there.
Speaker 2:So hey.
Speaker 1:I'll find out this when I get there.
Speaker 2:Right, Okay, so I think we, you know, looking at happiness and looking at our seasons of life, there's four seasons. You're in your winter season and in Westernized psychology that would be linear. You're born, you grow, you have your peak and then you age and it's kind of like a downward and there's an end to life. So I think, for our listeners, we're really looking at this as that circular.
Speaker 1:It's not the end of life. It's time now for your body to go back to the earth, but the life that makes your body move is your spirit. So your spirit is what's moving on. So we're going to be living a different phase. We're going to be how do we know? Maybe we'll enter into a new body or we don't know, but we know that it's going to be good, because you know it was a good life Right.
Speaker 2:And I think that a lot of our you know society they're searching for something, some kind of belief like what you're talking about and like what our people, you know, and our ancestors they lived by, and I think that's that's kind of I think that's the whole topic of what is happiness that people are trying to seek something similar to what you're explaining and not just read it or hear it or listen to it, but actually believe that. And that's another level of where I have a thought about that.
Speaker 1:I'm sorry, am I interrupting? No, you're good. I have a thought about that. I feel like it's a word that's not separate from me. It's a word that's not separate from you, it's a part of you. And all of these emotions in balance is what helps us to appreciate and celebrate this life. Like someone talked about, it's not an entitlement. They expect that it's an entitlement. Well, it's. How could it be? Either? Or when it's a part of, it's already a part of you, right? Because if we have been given permission to come here on this journey in our life, walk from creator, our light walk from creator he thought about that before he gave us that permission, as a people, as a part of the living beings that came to this area of the universe. Mm-hmm. Good, because it comes from creator's thought. He allowed this to be. We are his thoughts, our whole being. I don't know.
Speaker 2:I think, yeah, I think it's looking at it as we were constantly seeking, maybe outside or that's our tendency to maybe try to own something that we already possess. We already have this and, believing that you have the power to create these feelings and see we don't possess it, because then you're putting it separate from you.
Speaker 1:It's a part, a part of us, it's already there. And all of these parts working in harmony. It's like those little rocks outside of that water drum.
Speaker 1:That's what they represent. You think about in the English way. Now they explain that, like those seven little rocks, one represents each lodge that belongs to our Midewin Lodge, the way we live the good life in Bima-Adi-Suin, the way we live the good life Now. One of the rocks is each grandfather, each rock is a grandfather, if you think of it that way. And they gave these gifts, revealed these gifts to the little boy to bring back to the people, to reveal them, and like one is love, then another one is courage, another one is bravery. All together, well, there's seven honesty, you know, and you know the rest. But if they're all working in balance, if you have them, you can acknowledge them. Okay, this is honesty right now and I'm going to enjoy it. I'm enjoying it.
Speaker 1:This is the respect, and also, if you have too much bravery, you might do something that might hurt yourself. So you've got to have the courage to tell yourself okay, back up, you need all these other things here to keep you in good harmony so that you can function in a tip-top shape. Right, Some humility, the way Creator expects it to be.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:And so that's why we need each other in this world, because that water drum is teaching us that in that circle, I need you, you need me, we need everyone. It's no good to think to walk alone. It took a whole village to take care of themselves. It was hard. It's too hard to live alone, right? I don't know if that makes sense to you.
Speaker 2:You know, just because I've been able to able to you've been my teacher for a very long time, so it's something that you'veabe teachings and that this may this, a lot of this won't make total sense to to them, but they're. What we want to do is just introduce this and allow people to start having this conversation to see if and a lot of things that we talk about maybe aren't making sense, but people are listening because they're curious and they sometimes one word that we say or one you know phrase out of the whole podcast can be enough for them to grasp onto. So it's it's more about us just opening up and having the conversation and allowing people to listen. They're part of it. You know, this is part of a conversation that many people are not having.
Speaker 1:They don't know how to have it. He made all seven nations, meaning the plant life as a nation, the animal life as a nation, the people as a nation. You see what I'm saying? Yeah, those that crawl, those that live in the water, right, these are nations. When he thought of that, he thought of us being a part of each other, each other. Yeah, the relationship in harmony is the good life.
Speaker 2:Right like interconnectedness.
Speaker 1:The relationship of all these nations that I mentioned Right, and that's Bemaad, that's that respect for each other. Then Mother Earth wouldn't be in the shape she's in because that respect would have been there and there wouldn't be taking too much of her minerals or putting garbage in the water.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:Because everybody would have, oh no, we don't put garbage in the water, right. Because everybody would have, oh no, we don't put garbage in the water. Even our animals don't do that. You know, domestic animals are the only ones that they're domestic. Now, Domestic animals are the only ones that poop in the water naturally. In the wild they don't do that. It's a natural, normal thing not to.
Speaker 2:That's the respect for all the other nations that's using that water Right, right, and a big piece of what's missing at large is taking care of the Mother Earth and Bima Desiwin. That Miss Debbie said is to live a good life, and what she's really getting at is this balance of the interconnectedness and the teachings that we're giving to us from Creator. So our our topic of happiness.
Speaker 2:When you, when you bring in and consult with an Anishinaabe elder, you can see the complexity of trying to to just take one word and have a simple conversation there's. It reminds me a lot of in psychology when people ask me that, like, do you have an hour or longer? Because there are so many layers to everything that you just said. I need time to explain it and talk about all these things that influence and you have to consider and I think that's what we're doing here is really going back to the source of that already exists. It's internal I think that's a word I was trying to explain somewhat last when Harold and I had this conversation is you can't create this. It's from the inside and I think part of that was, it's a part of you and I think addressing that, it's part of your spirit, taking it out and using it at the right time, right Fear, courage it's a part of you.
Speaker 1:Okay, I've got to use this today, just like all these different tools in the drawer there. Okay, I've got to use that now, not a spare one and balancing that. And knowing when to grab what you need.
Speaker 2:When to grab what you need. You know it's just natural and to celebrate all of the emotions which are really considered gifts. And what's funny is there are seven core emotions that psychology says that we have in Anishinaabe. They say there's seven, there's seven gifts and there is some of the difference of exploring those two and I think that would be a really good conversation that you and I can have again on the on the podcast.
Speaker 1:We're talking about seven core versus the seven gifts, of balancing, you know, humility, respect all of that, balancing, you know, humility, respect, all of that, taking pieces of that, even those lodges. See, seven is such a good number. Seven like represents those seven grandfathers, the seven stopping places in our migration from the eastern shores, right, and seven lodges Right. And what do those seven lodges what you know? One Sundance Lodge, you know I've been someone shared with me that this lodge is for earning Right. This lodge is for healing Right, this lodge is for learning Right, this lodge is for socializing, our powwow lodge, you know, and those kinds of things. And there's lots of good things about that seven.
Speaker 2:Right, so much, so much. So I'm glad you recognize that, thank you. Oh, yes, yeah, and I think it's something that I'm trying to really keep our listeners on board with where you and I are going, because it's the same thing I have to remember. As a psychologist, I'm trying to communicate this in everyday language so that they can take some of it, and I always have to remind myself that I've trained in this for 10 years and I've been in the field for over 20. So my brain just naturally has all of the history of psychology and of behavior, and then I have to remember that my listeners and the patients I see they don't have all that history.
Speaker 1:And that's all learned behavior. That might not have been a good thing, right. It's learned behavior because it was forced on us, right? Right, because we didn't have those things to worry about long ago, right as much. I'm sure we had hardships. Yeah, you know, it wasn't all hunky-dory, right, but work was a natural thing, yeah, but work was a natural thing.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think it's more where our listeners for the first, you know they may just be hearing some of these teachings and you've been living them, you know, you've been teaching them for I mean most of your life.
Speaker 2:So I'm trying to make sure to just maybe get our listeners so that they can, because I'm teaching, that has so many other elements and so hopefully people are, you know, engaged in this conversation with us and that you're, you're, you know, I hope that you're able to come back and then follow up more on the seven you know the, even the importance of seven, but to to break it down and then maybe we can do that, that the emotions versus the and the teachings of the seven gifts, and to give our listeners somewhere to start, you know, somewhere to start to integrate a bit of what you've been living and what our ancestors have known and and where we're at now with it to the best of our ability, and to join in some of the psychology that people are. You know that that's what we're using to try to help people get to a point of feeling well or feeling like they're making the right moves in their life. So I think that's a great place for us to continue to visit.
Speaker 1:Well, I'm glad I got to visit with you today and, yes, I agree, let's do some more of this. You know, knowledge doesn't belong to individuals. It belongs to everyone. So if we can share, then someone can use that in a good way, then we've done something good. We've accomplished something to feel good about.
Speaker 2:Right, well, miigwech. Thank you, miss Debbie, and I'm excited to have future conversations with you. Harold, I know, will be joining us for those conversations and I know he has really great questions, and so I think that we'll just have some more conversations to come. So thank you, listeners, and if you do have questions, you can message, you can reach out to us ideas of topics, and those are always welcomed here. Ps, looking at the role of just emotion and happiness and opening it up to other cultures, other beliefs, other theories, is something that can maybe help us get to that next level of our understanding and how we can achieve a good way of living. Miigwech, miigwech.